Your guild is against the TOS and will be dissolved

[Against TOS]

Just so you know, from the GW2 Rules of Conduct, item 12:

http://us.ncsoft.com/en-gb/legal/user-agreements/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.html

You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

By basing your guild on a religion, excluding people from membership based on religion or sexual orientation, you're violating this.

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[Iconic Fury]

Against TOS wrote:

Just so you know, from the GW2 Rules of Conduct, item 12: http://us.ncsoft.com/en-gb/legal/user-agreements/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.html Quote: You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies. By basing your guild on a religion, excluding people from membership based on religion or sexual orientation, you're violating this.

I have read the ENTIRE thing and I think you misunderstand the Rules of Conduct. The Saints 3G is NOT "racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or have any hate mongering philosophies"

The Saints 3G Community is made of people who LOVE people, ALL people. We are Christian gamers and wish to play Guild Wars to with other Christian Gamers. You will NEVER see anyone in this guild saying in chat about "hating" anyone. It is true that we beileve the Bible is God's Word and choose to live by what it says. This does NOT mean however we are going to force it down anyones throat. God gave everyone a free will and a person can choose to follow it or not. As for violating anything in the Guild Wars 2 Rules of Conduct we won't be doing that.

Thank you for voicing your concern and if you have anything else you are wondering about regarding our community feel free to ask. I and many others here would like to help you understand what we are all about.

Have a good one!

[Against TOS]

From the guild's constitution:

Section B: Requirements
Approval shall be granted to any applicant upon review of their application indicating that said person meets all of the following requirements: (a) the person is a born-again Christian and gives testimony of salvation (b) the person appears to be friendly, honest, & respectful (c) the person is at least 18 years old or has parental permission to join S3G (d) the person is not a sodomite, pedophile, or some other type of perverted person. The Guild Council reserves the right to deny an application if we suspect that said applicant poses a danger to the sanctity, unity, or spirit of S3G.

see that section (d)? You're excluding "sodomites" (homosexuals) That's against the Rules of Conduct.

Also earlier:

Section J: Marriage
We believe that marriage, as God intended, is between one man and one woman and that sodomy is a sinful abomination. (Gen. 2:24; Lev. 18:22)

that declaration that being homosexual is a "sinful abomination" is not exactly tolerant.

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[SaintOdid]

It is funny how this type of conversation always comes up in ever game. Once again this does not imply that guild cannot be designed on the foundations they choose as long as they do not try and force their stand on others.

It makes me laugh every time, especially when guilds with Adult Content, bad language, and inappropriate stuff would also violate this conduct as well. If it really meant as you are describing. It would violate, anti-religion, Anti-ethnic, and Sexist. Hmmm....

As Iconic stated above is why we do no violate. We do not promote agendas. We follow the Bible, and we created a place for like-minded people to play together.

Thanks for the concern, and as Iconic stated, feel free to talk to anyone =)

Hope you have a swell night!

[Darius Tarminthor]

Also, it's perhaps just me, but I find the likelihood of you being an actual "official" from NCsoft to be highly suspect. Since when does any member of the corporation actively look around at the -thousands- of guilds, track down their websites, and not even bother to follow procedure of bringing said 'warning' to the leaderships email?

Many lawls, mister troll. Have a nice day.

[dioscamina7]

Against TOS wrote:

From the guild's constitution: Section B: Requirements Approval shall be granted to any applicant upon review of their application indicating that said person meets all of the following requirements: (a) the person is a born-again Christian and gives testimony of salvation (b) the person appears to be friendly, honest, & respectful (c) the person is at least 18 years old or has parental permission to join S3G (d) the person is not a sodomite, pedophile, or some other type of perverted person. The Guild Council reserves the right to deny an application if we suspect that said applicant poses a danger to the sanctity, unity, or spirit of S3G. see that section (d)? You're excluding "sodomites" (homosexuals) That's against the Rules of Conduct. Also earlier: Section J: Marriage We believe that marriage, as God intended, is between one man and one woman and that sodomy is a sinful abomination. (Gen. 2:24; Lev. 18:22) that declaration that being homosexual is a "sinful abomination" is not exactly tolerant.

I think, good sir, that there is a disparity in philosophy...

To philosophically and theologically disagree or believe that something or a way of life is bad does not make you discriminatory... it means you disagree with people who may have that way of life... to disagree and hold firm on that belief is not discriminatory.

To actively pursue, harass, slander, annoy an individual is discrimination... you will find that we are guilty of no such thing and never will be because although we may disagree with someone's beliefs and/or way of life, we will never and have never, harassed or disrespected or anyone.

In fact, there are strict rules on our own behavior in place as Christians which I encourage that you read. Above it says that we have the right to deny anyone entrance to the guild whom we have concerns about...

If indeed, GW2 bans us they will one declare war on the 1st Amendment which indeed protects our right to religion and OUR BELIEFS. Yes, this fact, is important because it indeed GIVES US RIGHT... to BELIEVE... as we wish, that is our constitutional right.

Next, if they do so, they will be also forced to tell every guild that they cannot reject an applicant to their guild... for any reason... which would then destroy the concept of a guild, because in a guild you may accept and reject whom you wish to play for whatever reason... its like me telling you that you have to hang out with me, even if you don't like me because otherwise your a discriminator... logically that doesn't make much sense does it? People have a right to say no to something if they want to... You cannot force people to believe in or do something they don't want to do... that would be the opposite of freedom.

As our good friends have said, thank you for concerns... If you would ever like anymore clarification on our policies or any help about what we believe... just say hello! we would be happy to help!

[dioscamina7]

Against TOS wrote:

Just so you know, from the GW2 Rules of Conduct, item 12: http://us.ncsoft.com/en-gb/legal/user-agreements/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.html Quote: You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies. By basing your guild on a religion, excluding people from membership based on religion or sexual orientation, you're violating this.

In fact, I believe it says... you may not espouse anti-religious religious philospohies... I believe that coming on to our site and espousing that we should not be is an anti-religious sentiment and philosophy... not that I don't welcome you hear but again I believe the spirit of this text is to create a positive playing environment... not to come after people who think differently which seems to be happening here.

Again, no offense but we should be fair right?

Thanks friend,

Gav

[SaintOdid]

Well Said! Ditto!

[Rogue_Renegade]

"You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies."

I understand your confusion about the ToS, but please allow me to parse the semantics of that sentence a little. It says a guild cannot be based on anti-religious or anti-gay phillosophies that are specifically "hate mongering."

In other words, your guild cannot be formed on the basis of like "Anti-Muslim" or "Anit-Christian" lines. This certainly does not describe us. We are a pro-religious (specifically a pro-Christian) guild.

Likewise, our guild does not exist to pool together gay-bashers or hate mongers in regards to homosexuality. We simply are a guild of Biblical Christians. What we believe about homosexuality is not based on hate nor do we relate to others with hate.

Hope it helps.

[Culan]

Against TOS wrote:

Just so you know, from the GW2 Rules of Conduct, item 12: http://us.ncsoft.com/en-gb/legal/user-agreements/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct.html Quote: You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies. By basing your guild on a religion, excluding people from membership based on religion or sexual orientation, you're violating this.

Ya, it won't be. Nice try though. However, since you hate Christians, you should probably follow the ToS and not play.

[Against TOS]

I think, good sir, that there is a disparity in philosophy...

To philosophically and theologically disagree or believe that something or a way of life is bad does not make you discriminatory... it means you disagree with people who may have that way of life... to disagree and hold firm on that belief is not discriminatory.

To actively pursue, harass, slander, annoy an individual is discrimination... you will find that we are guilty of no such thing and never will be because although we may disagree with someone's beliefs and/or way of life, we will never and have never, harassed or disrespected or anyone.

In fact, there are strict rules on our own behavior in place as Christians which I encourage that you read. Above it says that we have the right to deny anyone entrance to the guild whom we have concerns about...

If indeed, GW2 bans us they will one declare war on the 1st Amendment which indeed protects our right to religion and OUR BELIEFS. Yes, this fact, is important because it indeed GIVES US RIGHT... to BELIEVE... as we wish, that is our constitutional right.

Next, if they do so, they will be also forced to tell every guild that they cannot reject an applicant to their guild... for any reason... which would then destroy the concept of a guild, because in a guild you may accept and reject whom you wish to play for whatever reason... its like me telling you that you have to hang out with me, even if you don't like me because otherwise your a discriminator... logically that doesn't make much sense does it? People have a right to say no to something if they want to... You cannot force people to believe in or do something they don't want to do... that would be the opposite of freedom.

As our good friends have said, thank you for concerns... If you would ever like anymore clarification on our policies or any help about what we believe... just say hello! we would be happy to help





A couple things that should be remembered:

1. It is not your beliefs that are being targeted here, it is stating in your guild constitution that homosexuals are "sinful abominations", that is a derogatory remark, namely the abominations part of it.

2. Guild Wars 2 is not a public forum, it is private. Therefore, just like your own home, the owners get to make up some rules, where your constitutional rights do not necessarily apply. Freedom of speech and the right to assemble apply to public property. I can say whatever I want, I can be anti-Muslim, anti-gay, I can walk around with signs that say "God hates Fags" on the street and be well within my constitutional rights. However, I cannot come into the private residence of a gay man with such a sign, could I? If I did, he's well within his rights as a homeowner, to ask me to leave, call the cops, or even shoot me if I refuse to leave and he feels threatened. Arenanet and NCSoft have determined that some of their house rules are that you can't form groups/guilds that are anti-homosexual among other things, which is what I'm getting from your constitution. You will bar people entry into your guild based on sexual orientation, and decry them as "sinful abominations". Is it a stretch to say you would not accept Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Atheist applicants (therefore excluding people of other faiths) as well?

3. You can reject people from your guild for a variety of reasons, including their age, language barrier, time zone, rude behavior, foul language, criminal activities, etc. You cannot however exclude people based on race, gender, faith, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. The moment you reject someone because they're black, or they're a woman, or they're gay, or they're chinese (but speak fluent English, again, refusing because you do not share the same language and cannot communicate is something entirely different), you've done something discriminatory and against the rules.

4. I have seen 1 Christian Guild that managed to work and not get banned. They were quite emphatic that they would accept people even if they were full blown Satanists if they wished, and did not call out homosexuals or atheists or other faiths, they simply let things go and let those people that did not "fit in" to their guild's ethos wash out on their own as they did not share common interests.

But the fact that you state up ahead of time that you will not accept those people is going to get you in trouble.

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[Rogue_Renegade]

We're still parsing that sentence from the ToS a bit differently. If GW2 does not allow for a Christian guild then so be it. I'm certain that such a decision would in itself be discriminatory and likely cause a huge public backlash against the company.

But we'll be glad to check with GW2. As for you, if you are concerned, please feel free to email the devs and request their input or even request a ban on us. As for us, our beliefs do not generate from hate but simple adherence to our Scriptures. We cannot and will not be otherwise....game or no game.

But I do appreciate the fact that you have tried to makes logical points rather than simply troll. The bottom line is we are understanding the ToS differently. If we play GW2, then I guess that will determine who is correctly understanding the intent of the devs.

[Against TOS]

You can be a guild of Christians, and I have no problem with that. What you can't do is discriminate membership based on those things I listed previously and state that one of those things are "abominations"

Just put this into perspective.

Women are in the old testament, said to be the source of man's sin and temptation.

That religious history was used as justification for CENTURIES to discriminate against women.

Would your guild claim that women are "sinful abominations"? Probably not

But such a connection is in the book.

What if you said "Blacks are sinful abominations" that wouldn't fly, or Muslims, or Jews, or Chinese, or Russians... why is it okay to decry homosexuals as "sinful abominations" publicly in your guild, but not the rest?

Why not just, leave that section out of your constitution, and not bar entry based on those things, and just leave it at that. Honestly those people probably would not apply to be in the guild in the first place as it would be a somewhat unwelcome environment for them.

I don't mind a Christian guild, I just don't want bigoted guilds, does that make sense?

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[-Jedidiah-]

Against TOS wrote:

I don't mind a Christian guild, I just don't want bigoted guilds, does that make sense?

It does. A bigot is defined by Webster's as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance." We do not regard or treat members of any group with hatred and intolerance. We hold a different opinion, one which is biblically sound, and with which we all agree. There is no hatred and intolerance being demonstrated, nor will there be, from this guild of Christians.

[Against TOS]

I fail to see how calling a group of people that is born different from you "abominations" is being tolerant and not bigoted.

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